A Little Room for Healing

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Hello friends welcome to a little room for healing where we aim to create a little more room in the world for authentic connection insightful healing and a deeper understanding of our hearts ourselves and each other through honest conversation my name is Joel I'm a raiki and 13th octav laho Chi practitioner a facilitator for deep healing and and your host joining me today is Ivan chocome Ivonne has 10 years of medicine facilitation and always had a strong pull toward Bridging the worlds of healing and spirituality with science and psychology lately he has been stepping away from holding Retreats and

more focused on educating people around the importance of doing healing work with or without plants he has started a YouTube channel and has been featured in many podcasts and conferences ways to find him are linked in the episode description on this episode we talk about death the fear of it and how it influences our beliefs Ivonne gives us a closer look at what a shaman is and we discuss the possibility of holding everything is true as usual we start with check-ins so we can be more tuned with each other come on in hi Ivon hi

Joe welcome to a little room for healing thank you it's a pleasure to be here awesome you uh are visiting from Los Angeles correct would you call Los Angeles the home base right now yeah it's the closest thing to home right now even though I am pretty homeless in this moment yeah yeah that's why I was like I was like wait a minute I'm not sure if he's really there or not but there is a is there a desire to there's a desire to return there at least for a stint if circumstances are leading that way yeah

uh I'm waiting for something to happen with my wife when that happens we will settle uh well interestingly enough we're going to do check-ins in a minute but interestingly enough your wife was on the podcast last week right yeah exactly and we talked about what she was uh looking to have happen so okay then uh my Sol yeah if if you all are curious check out the episode last week right exactly with with Emily um okay so let's uh let's do some check-ins I'll go first and then I'll pass it over to you okay there I

am still trying to Center and just like like uh physically relax into the space because we just found a beetle that Ivonne really wanted it to survive so I took it I ran upstairs and took it outside I do admit I I I wasn't uh I was neither here nor there on its survival but it does feel good that we let it survive so I do feel good about that and uh so I'm just kind of getting my heart rate back down because I tend to rush things um and I'm feeling really spacious and excited about talking with you uh

Ivon and seeing what comes out of the conversation and where it goes and what kind of things we we we move in the space together and you may hear some walking above just to acknowledge that that is present uh yeah that's I feel like that's my checken nothing nothing really really wild is going on in my system today I feel pretty calm and centered so how about you uh I'm feeling pretty calm and energized at the same time I I always love what comes out of these kind of conversations so yeah looking forward looking forward to it

come I would say nothing out of the ordinary it's not a specifically um special day emotionally I would say I mean sometimes you wake up and you're like oh I can barely get out of bed and you don't even understand why and you're depressed or or you wake up and you're like I want to hug everybody like there's like some something very and today I'm feeling like very much middle of of the way in between I mean I don't feel any sadness or anything pretty cheerful I would say no sadness and no overwhelming desire to hug

everyone except you except I'll take it right now yeah yeah thanks you're welcome I don't think I've ever uh started an episode with a hug before oh that was really nice yeah uh well thank you for your check-in and I gotta say I I mentioned this to you before about a word that kept popping in my head when when I thought of you and I sitting here and doing it doing a podcast together and there was one word that popped in my head and then there's also another one another another thing that was popping in my head last night

as I was sleeping um and I'm going to name those two things name them the first one was death just to start like easy and the first word was it's not specifically an emotional day in any way so why don't we just talk about death and the word death came well the other I'll say the other word too the other word is Shaman H and curiosity about uh because you are one is that okay to say yeah because you because you are Shaman and so there's a curiosity of maybe giving uh an in a more in-depth look description

of what a shaman actually is and what a shaman actually does m and I realizing that there are different ways a shaman can hold space and work especially with medicine MH so curious about that uh and it feels like uh I'm I also want to go back to the death thing so the reason the death came up in regards to you is because I uh I remember being with you in a ceremony and multiple ceremonies actually where you have brought up death in that you have a a relationship with it that uh you've been exploring it and

uh your exploring your relationship with death not exploring death I don't think you've died and come back yet have you uh maybe you have you know you know what some of these substances can do yeah that's true I think I mean I'm going I'm going to to finish but just to interject there in a way ex exploring one's relationship with death can only be enriched the enriched the closer one gets to it and at the end of the day we can't really say what it feels like to die and come back because that specific thing

has not happened to anyone but we there's certain experiences that even if people people wouldn't have heard anything about them about the experiences um or about each other's experiences so if you were to isolate all of these people and give them certain substances they all report that the experience felt like dying and coming back even though they haven't heard each other even though you might not have told them that ahead of time so they weren't necessarily Placebo into it or or affected ahead of time and so we can't really talk for death as an actual

thing that happened where your body fully decomposed and like you came back uh we don't really know what that feels like but we have experiences that for every that for many humans in their own separate ways have felt that that was like death and whether at the end of the day once we die that is true or not um that death feels like that um I feel like it's a really good way of exploring your relationship to it so since I started um having those death like experiences I don't want to call it near-death experiences I

think death like experiences feels a little bit more accurate um since I started having them my relationship with the idea of death has changed a lot over time which I'm happy to to expand on that but I'm also aware I kind of interjected into something you are saying that's I to it's totally welcome that you did that I I don't even remember what I was saying because I was got drawn into what you were saying uh those experience so two things about that one is that when you were talking about people's experiences with death or what they uh

have claimed were near death experience are you talking about people that uh have have actually had their heart stop and then come back to life like that those kinds of experiences like near-death experiences and without medicine like real heart stopping uh Bright Lights uh connection with spirits and then come back and be like wow my life has changed M well even if your heart stops that does not mean that you are dead right like you're dead when at the end of the day you just can't come back um your heart stops I love that yeah um yeah your heart stops and you

have you know you up to maybe three or in some cases maybe four or five minutes of life left in you because your uh tissues still have oxygen in them your brain still has O oxygen in it so um I mean you might have damage in your tissues but and what what happens during those moments m is something that I mean unless you go through it we will not know but people who have gone through that report somewhat similar experiences as those who have had deathlike experiences with psychedelics so oh that's cool to know yeah right

it's like you can do it by smoking a little toad or by drinking a little Vine or these things um you can also have deathlike experiences using breath work or you can just stop your heart for five minutes or so you know and uh don't try it at home though just in case yeah just in case you're not very good at bringing it back and in all these cases it feels like people are reporting very similar things and that has helped a lot in my relationship with death for sure um my experience with death was um

before psychedelics was of absolute denial and underneath the denial not denial like I'm never going to die M but that yeah that thing yeah it happens to everyone you know some some version of put let's put it in the Shelf it's it's going to be a long time from now so n think about it later um but that denial is a cover for the fear of it the fear of all of this being gone the only thing we know whether you believe in past lives or not whether you believe you're going to go to heaven or not it

doesn't matter because we we could be wrong I kind of believe in past lives in a weird way not so linear um I I believe in a lot of things yet I am aware that that's at the end of the day my belief I can I can detach from the idea that my beliefs are not necessarily the truth which is not true for everyone some people cannot detach objective truth which we might not have necessarily access to with subjective truth or even more which would be beliefs I believe in whatever you want to believe in in Buddha in Jesus in who whoever you

want to believe in and I believe that's the path and that's the way fantastic like totally go for it can you also acknowledge that at the end of the day it's a belief and that maybe 0.001% of chance that you could be wrong so that chance however big that is that on believed are wrong it could be that then death happens and that's that's it all we know is all gone um I a person that has been always very much in love with life a combination of being in love with life and attached to life I really like

this place it's hard to be alive life is challenging we I mean there are moments where I just don't want to live anymore we like oh this is just too much not like Suicidal Tendencies more like this is just too hard I'm tired it's like somebody who's just got tired of doing something and wants a change right yet I really really love it I think it's a miracle when I watch uh astronomy um videos on astronomy or or read books on on it or on pregnancy and life and death and all it's just all too magical and

I've always been like that so for me death was like the end of the magic um and so I was in denial and psychics have Wow have done a lot for that part of me um should I make a pause do you want to say something I feel like I'm giving some sort of monologue a very enjoyable monologue uh I do have some questions some thoughts one is regarding beliefs and regarding let's say and let's just focus on your beliefs sure when you are you say you're able to hold that they might not be true there's

a possibility and I'm wondering what your beliefs then are based in like where where does the attachment or the connection to those beliefs come from in you if you're also able to hold that they might not be true right I would say I would say that I I come from an I would call it atheist background it's not really a background but I don't know how you it's not that I studied atheism you know an atheist disposition yeah um I came uh I was born from Mostly atheist parents maybe somewhat agnostic but mostly atheist um

I sometimes told a story of my dad pointing at a church no me pointing at a church um when I was a kid I was maybe five um I was in the car pointing at a church what what's that I said to my dad and my dad said that's a church that was the first time I heard that word so I was like what's a church my dad said oh that's where people go waste their time and I was like so confused right I was like why would you do that yeah okay I guess people like wasting their

time I mean I'm just this is no offense to any Christian or anyone going to church this is how I grew up um and and so death is so much worse when you're an atheist and you love life it's like that's it so so I in a way I'm I'm somewhat grateful for that experience because um that started changing a lot with psychedelics I would say psychedelics were aaska was my first psychedelic and it it it made me realize how narrow that Viewpoint was yet it made me not discarded because I was exposed to it

you know that um that story of the many blind people touching a different part of the elephant um it's somewhat somewhat popular uh it's maybe I butcher it but the summary is that you have a bunch of blank people touching a different part of an elephant and they are being asked what's an elephant and somebody would say oh it's a long an elephant it's a long pipe like thing with holes and somebody's like what are you talking about an elephant is this big trunk and somebody else is like no an elephant is a very tiny fluffy thing at so right and

they are all right and but it's not a complete picture and so with with this I felt the same way with um atheism it's like I I was like the blind person like uh uh life has no God and um you are born out of some incredible incredible Coincidence of a bunch of random atoms getting together in that specific way um and you happen to get self-realization and know that you exist and then all of that is gone and that's it poof so that is a perspective which has shifted a lot once I started doing aaska I was like

there's all of his these other perspectives it's like the blindfold was was taken off and I got to see maybe more of the elephant maybe not the whole elephant cuz an elephant is within your like view only see one side of it well yeah right but you can you an elephant is small enough to be within your eyesight I think reality is much be I accept that I mean reality contains several elephants at the very least right other things too so um but it made me it brought to me the idea of maybe reality is much more

than what I think it made me feel really small in a good way in the way of in a humbling way okay who did I think I was to to be so sure about what reality is so ha has shown me another psychedelics too a a bunch of other perspectives and now I hold hold all of them including the one that I came from The Atheist one and so I am holding that as a potential possibility to it doesn't feel right or true anymore it doesn't feel true in my heart after after so many experiences

I'm like I really really really don't think that the atheist route is the one that it will end up being the the true true one yet because I'm small and because I acknowledge that and because I acknowledge that I don't see the whole elephant of [Music] reality maybe that one is still true and all the other things are ways of experiencing life and until you die and it's all gone so it's not my belief but I hold it as a possibility yeah I like what you just said at the end I really really I mean the maybe they're all just

ways of experiencing life which they are uh they definitely are and then perhaps one of them or multiple of them to Connected are what actually happens post right cuz we also have one more perspective which is that because we're small or or our brains or our minds are limited we there are certain things that just don't land in the ways in which we experience a world for example where all of them are true so our brains can't grasp that how could it be that it's all gone and you're never like that's that's it atheism no

God like died gone and also you're an eternal soul that gets reincarnated or works on your karma or that the Christian way is the right way and and if you do what Jesus does you go to heaven and if not you go to hell and all of them could be true at the same like we just that's wow that's something I never considered right because um that does not land in the world of Duality uhhuh and our minds operate in the world of Duality either black or white either I'm a man or a woman either I'm I don't

know I'm happy or I'm sad can't be happy or sad at the same time either a naasa experience is really Intense or nothing is happening but it can't be both at the same time right so it's like either I'm alive or I'm dead uh can I be alive and dead at the same time our brains cannot cannot grasp how that could be yet psychedelics have helped me have experiences of Singularity where those things they are not necessarily true right now but I I got to feel what it feels like to experience somewhat dual contradicting experiences at the same

time so if I could experience it at least a little bit I am now holding the possibility that that maybe could be true and we just can't our brains are just not wired to think think about it that way amazing that's can I share a story of a journey I had oh please let me stop talking how what you just said about being able to experience being dead and alive at the same the possibility that you can experience death and life at the same time is there was one Journey where I uh experienced being diagnosed with

prostate cancer and had to process that and then experienced the body and then experienced fighting the prostate cancer and then experienced losing the battle to prostate cancer and then dying and then in that experience of death I wasn't actually in the death I was actually outside watching my death and then I watched myself decompose M and then all the way down to skull and then flowers coming out of the eyeballs wow and then it all just kind of turning into dirt into a garden oh that's beautiful yeah and I never thought of it as oh wow I'm

experiencing life and death at the same time until you just said that to me oh cool was like actually as the Observer I'm alive and actually but actually feeling and experiencing all of the things that were happening in the death and the decomposition uh that's really cool that's that's kind of like that's going to take some time to sink in like I'm feeling it I like that's a lot yeah yeah um I think think I am um very some of our gifts uh most of our gifts and maybe the truth is all of our gifts but I'm not sure definitely most

of our gifts stem from trauma and pain and one of the things that generates a lot of pain in me is people who who hold their truth as the truth and speak from that place so it doesn't matter it doesn't matter which truth that is I I experience the same pain from somebody who says atheism there's no God and that's the truth and like as much as somebody says Jesus is the way and that's the truth P or whichever that just TR just replace my words with blank space is the truth and just when I see that I

experience a lot of pain um it just I think it Taps into deeper ones of um how much certainty is a beginner of so many fights and disagreements and certainty also closes our hearts a lot mhm M instead of tell me what's your perspective my your perspective is Jesus you tell me what's your perspective my perspective is atheism and we could be like imagine a world this is so hard to imagine because people would be like you're wrong no you're wrong right imagine where I'm like oh cool I don't believe in that but that's so amazing that we are all so

different and that that's the way in which you're perceiving the world and you're like wow you believe in a M MH that's that's amazing like I wonder what it feels like and we just have curiosity and then and share a moment of connection and so I am not thinking of this in an aware way when I hear somebody be so stuck to their truth as the truth um but it does bring all of these emotions up of this is the beginning of conflict this is a beginning of War this is beginning of disagreements of family members

splitting over one voting for one candidate or the other um in Russia right now I I have you probably know I have a lot of friends in Russia I've been there many times and the older generation is pro Putin and the younger generation is against it and parents and children just like don't they don't talk to each other anymore right and I feel like that is from the certainty that each part is uh and the conviction that each part is uh attached to and so so why was I saying all of this uh I had a point that I clearly

lost can I tell you what came up for me while you were saying that and maybe that your point will come back um I was feeling into the truth that I've been holding when you were saying talking about people's truths and the conflict that arises and my truth is that my experience matters mhm and there's I'm seeing that how much I believe that that's the right the overall right thing you know I'm like this is my belief my belief is like my experience matters which means that and I'm right in that that's the end all be all and also being

like if my experience matters your experience matters MH mhm and then seeing how hard it is to hold your experience matters if your experience is grading against my experience matter right mattering yeah if my experience is your experience doesn't matter it would be really hard for you to to hold that your experience matters yes yes and I was thinking that because you were like the world in which different beliefs can be like oh wow you're so you're you're an atheist that's so interesting I want to learn I want to hear about it I want to learn

about it and then that person turning around going oh you're a Christian I really want to hear about that and then like those people holding each other's experiences and sharing their experiences MH like I love that mhm and that is totally possible MH feel like I've seen I've seen it yeah I've seen it I don't only think you've seen it I have a feeling you've you've participated in it just knowing you they may have yeah yeah if the person was uh in that same mode with me i' I've experienced it yes sure yeah I wonder

why I'm like have I I'm I'm pretty sure I have like I've sat with people who uh are Jewish and totally interested in what that means for them right and them knowing that I'm not Jewish and totally being cool with the fact that I'm not Jewish MH so yes I have experienced it mhm yeah and if you spend some time looking for more examples I'm sure that you will yeah the best that that that you will find a lot a lot more right and I think that also I think it would be good I mean sometimes we talk about

Enlightenment in these kind of settings and when you said something like either I want to be able to hold the fact that you're exper experience means is that I don't matter in a way that that matters like how hard would that be I don't think that's impossible and I don't think that and I think that that is very like that's that's like a step closer to Enlightenment in a way if you if you get if you manage to do that in a genuine way which I think is possible by seeing which part of if my experience is

you don't matter which parts of that touches wounds in you and if you're able to hold that in a way that is genuine and that you have practiced and that you're good at and you're like I don't need to be seen by you because I can see myself and hold myself then and if you if you also think that my experience of you not mattering is wounded based and you open your heart and have compassion for that then you would be able to be like tell me more about that like your experience matters to me even though my experience

doesn't matter to you because I'm so curious about what it feels like for um other people's experience not mattering to you like what's that work like what is happening in there it's like almost bringing it's bringing compassion to the part of the person that is wanted and he's bringing curiosity in your system that you can allow if you're holding yourself if you're not holding yourself and you're in pain the Curiosity go probably goes away or is not a priority cuz you're in pain when I that's not easy to do no no not easy to do not easy to do but I'm

seeing as you're saying that like if I'm really holding the belief that my experience matters um it doesn't mean that I'm actually practicing it perfectly I hope I do believe that my experience matters and I'm real I'm seeing now as you uh are sharing this with me that saying that uh your thoughts right there that even in me holding my experience matters sometimes I'm not holding really that my experience matters because I'm getting I'm having uh difficulty being with the parts of me that are wounded by not being seen mhm and that's an experience that I'm having and I'm like shaming it

or getting at it instead of holding it and loving it and being like okay I see that you're still there and that is like really truly being in my experience matters and being able to be in their experience matters because then if I can say that with my if I can see that in myself and hold that in myself then I can hold it in you mhm yeah um you can also apply your experience matters to the parts of you that um are covered by shame cuz shame it's like a cover for a part of

you that's like in the shadow MH and in a way it's an it's it is an indirect way of saying to that part your experience doesn't matter so you can be like your experience matters too down there MH and the other thing here's one way of um yeah here's one way of also be becoming curious let's say that let's let's bring up some historical figure that did a lot of harm we can we can it can be anybody it can be gisan it can be Hitler it can be um Franco um let's I don't know I mean

maybe certain words trigger some of the audience and makes it harder uh let's say Napoleon whoever you want like somebody who doesn't trigger you idea to make this exercise a little bit simp easier um aren't you curious that would be the like what's happening in Hitler's mind like what's happening there aren't you of course like we can judge we can I'm not I'm not saying he was an angel it's not it's not condoning it if you're curious about it right it's it's it's a moment where you can compartmentalize and say like yeah he did all this harm we are still

suffering from the effects of something that happened almost 80 years ago Etc can we put that aside for a minute we're not dismissing it and have some curiosity like what was happening in that mind and and then because there's no it isn't it isn't pure if it not it's not coincidence and I don't believe that it is evil either I don't think he was born evil what happened in someone's life to get to that point he became evil if if you will but I don't think that that's an intrinsic thing that we're born with so what has happened what has happened

and then whatever has happened must have made sense otherwise he would have become who he became it's just like a very simple almost cause consequence um and I get curious about that and I don't use the Curiosity to dismiss the the bad things that that any him or any historical figure or because if we can apply to that then we can start going lower in that scale and apply to our parents apply to our friends who betrayed us apply to our girlfriend to our and obviously to ourselves at the end at the end of the day

yeah yeah so that Curiosity I think is healthy and with the with the asterisk of not using the Curiosity to mask or to dismiss or to um kind of like put put things aside MH I have that Curiosity and then I find myself running into a wall when I see that the person doesn't have that Curiosity about themselves aren't you curious about why they are not curious what's happening in that person's mind or what happened in their lives that they are not curious yeah I am curious about that cool what does connecting with that Curiosity does

that change anything about the way you see people if you connect with that Curiosity about why they are not curious it does yeah it's uh it just makes me more Curious then I guess you like when you land in that you're like oh well there's there's a lot of interesting stuff going on there I think it it can also lead us to a place of understanding the person better mhm and when we understand the person better we tend to take things a little less personal and I think also like we can become a little more

compassionate sometimes compassion is in an enlight and being this is not true but in US morals uh going back to death we can go back there uh sometimes compassion is directly connected with understanding like if I understand why you did the things you did then maybe there's more chances that it be compassionate to you or you could have done the same exact things for the same exact reasons and if I don't get it then my heart might close and I might not be feeling compassionate toward you so curiosity in a way leads to finding out

you can't find out if you're not curious right um curiosity leads to finding out which might lead to understanding which might lead to compassion and at the end of the day that might relax your at the end of the day that's yeah it's the best thing you can do for them but is the best thing you can do for yourself it's also when going down going down the line of curiosity around that with people anytime you hit a block of like wait a minute why why am I having a hard time being curious about this with this

person then that's the point where you're like what what is what is the where did I run to the block and then take that and go is that in that's in me where is that in me that I'm not that I'm like actually trying to avoid or not being curious about yeah perfectly said okay um I'm feeling feeling like taking a break

it feels like the time to move into giving you some energy healing fantastic and uh I want to give you a opportunity to set an attention if you'd like to set an attention for your I think we're going to do 13 O to Luchi on you today [Music] so yummy [Laughter] yeah yeah it's pretty tasty yeah um what am I supposed to say uh if you have an intention you're welcome to say it out loud and if you don't say it out loud you don't have to I got lost in the yumminess that's right um

I I I've known you for how many five six years six and I've seen you grow into who you became and I've never experienced it so I think my um intention is actually to experience you and where you landed as for now as as of this moment as of this moment yeah um yeah I think that's my main intention and just let it happen see how I how it feels like that's cool yeah I can dig that all right intention no no pressure no pressure no yeah just trying to like really really convey where I am yes all in this one session

yes this is your chance Joel my chance to really prove how healed I've become woo okay great great intention received I like that intention I'm really really really fond of that intention and uh I love the reflection of I I like the moment of reflection of where I was when I met you and where I am now and I see a big difference MH so I'm looking forward to channeling that energy or the energy that I'm able to channel now because of that into you do do you see a difference did you see you like

that yeah I love you buddy all right yes great uh thank you thanks for uh uh plating that little boy needed me to be seen uh we will be right back after yvon's 13th OCT of laho chei

session and we are back from yvon's 13th octav laho chese session and I would love to hear any experiences that you feel like sharing from it sure um first thank you you're welcome CU I didn't say anything after it was done mhm saving everything for now thank you um right now I feel much slower um I feel like that like it's really nice it's yummy yes yeah pretty yummy it was yummy um it's funny CU I feel much more quiet which I'm not sure it works for well with a podcast [Laughter] uh I had the

constant feeling that I was in standby mode kind of like my system was on but like I mean I could have moved if my life depended on it but there was no desire or will or need or it was like and as you were working on me every part that you would work on and then eventually move to something else would be left with this feeling of um like an update happened there H like kind of battery like like that part melted and slowed down and it was left it kind of like a cleansing of that

part and because I was in some sort of standby um when you were done um and you said to that I could come back now to the space um you saw that crazy routine [Music] it wasn't like open your eyes um I felt like all of the places that have been updated needed to now adjust it's almost like you did the update and then turn the machine on and it can't operate right away it needs to like process it it it's like I wasn't processing while you were doing it I processed it all at once once I was ready to come

back and and I never do that it's not that oh that's my routine to come back from energ work I was like I was surprised I was like oh what's my body doing right now oh wow cool yeah and I was like okay just open your eyes and my body is like nope we're going to do all of this stretches and yawns and moving around and I still feel it a little bit um I had a lot of deep profound moments of that I would get in a really good meditation day like not all meditations go like that and

some are like very special and that put me in in that state I assume it lasted like somewhere maybe 45 to an hour I assume mhm could have lasted an hour 10 hours and I would have been able to stay there so I was like the switch was off um yeah it it brought a lot of really beautiful uh thoughts and and emotions and lots of gratitude and yeah I feel very very refreshed much more than much better than a good NA like I feel like yeah very up yeah combination of updated and refreshed and showered for

from the inside ah quiet slower more peaceful thank you you're welcome thanks for the report to report back of your experience that was great M it sounds sounds lovely you are in moments saying things out loud that I think that a lot of energy healers say just to themselves and that actually helped like if you would have said those things to yourself without me knowing um in those moments I was it helped me get slightly out of the TRS I was in to bring awareness to what was happening and your intentions were coming through your words and so I kind

of could feel them with you so that I that I also like that oh that's cool MH oh I like that yeah it is interesting coming back from coming back to the podcast after a session because I'm also because I just have that's going through me too so I'm also feeling like yeah and things do chill and relax a little bit in the second half almost every time I'm curious about how was it for you specifically working with me after so many years of me working on you love that question it I was very happy I was very happy to

be able to uh provide to you uh in in a healing space and to hold it container uh a whole have you in my container and to be able to be uh be the container for you and there's I was is interesting I was expecting more of what I'm about to say I was expecting more of this but there was there was was there's a little bit but not as much as I thought there was going to be of like uh the the worry the nervousness of oh I hope he's I hope this is doing something I hope this is

like working out for him uh I'm getting better at holding that with people um especially with people that have done so much uh holding for me that when I give back I'm like I really wanted to to do do what I know it can do mhm and uh but there was only a little bit of that today which was really nice uh I was really enjoying your deep size you had a lot of these really great inhales and then exhales I was really enjoying that and that felt really good to witness uh yeah it was it was really enjoyable

it's nice to be able to it's nice to be able to give back thanks yeah that was awesome uh had an interesting thought um regarding the topic that we started the podcast with which was death and regarding it's really interesting regarding the fact that last week or um at least the episode airs a week from when this air a week before this airs but it was only a week ago oh wait so it was last week last week when I did an episode with Emily with your wife and we were talking about bringing life into the

world and we were talking about life and here we sat down and talked about death nice and I was just like that was in my head I was like well what is interesting balance uh and not that there's anything inherently wrong with the top there's nothing wrong with the topic of death and it's not like we're talking like it's not morose and it's not heavy it's just this is death and with her was this is this is like prepping to bring life in and we're kind of talking about prepping to bring death in or uh meeting

death mhm and I just thought that was really fascinating yeah uh and I'm sure it was not staged like that just happen it really wasn't those are the magical moments of life that makes me fall so much in love with it mhmh and the many others that if you are paying attention you'll see all the time yeah it's too magical yeah yeah totally agree with you 100% yeah I love the the synchronicities and uh yeah those kinds of magical moments and then the other thing that came up to me came up while I was working

was I was wondering why Shaman the word Shaman was coming to me last night and then as I was working on you I was thinking that we haven't talked about that yet right and there's something I think well I'd like to I'd like to talk about it but what was coming up with me is like oh we're talking about and belief and kind of connection to the other side uh subtly we're talking about that in the beginning and that's similar there's like part of that in Shamanism being the bridge uh will you share a little bit

about what you believe Shamanism to be and what it means to you to play in that realm yes

um I have like three or four things that came into my mind and I'm having a little bit of hard time understanding where to start I'll start somewhere I guess no order of importance um the original Shaman is a um or this word it comes from Siberia in Russia and nowadays and nowadays I think it's just how things have developed in the west and the internet and what is popular Shamanism is mostly associated with medicine in in here at least medicine is mostly associated with aasa um even though probably there's more more mushrooms consumed generally

speaking than aasa mushrooms are not always Associated directly with the concept of medicine like people especially because people can it's very common for people to do them by themselves whereas aaska is mostly done with a facilitator and that facilitator is called the shaman here in the west and and so from there stems that Shamanism is everything that the original awasa facilitators in the jungle in the Amazon um do and that is like a little section of shamanism um and it's not even the where the word comes from right so um I debated with this word a lot and in

the west I mean we just all it's natural for us to bring our reality into it and our reality also contains wounding and it contains ego in the way in which we have it here in the west and so the word Shaman became extremely charged with um people wanting to be shamans people liking to have that word associated with them um because that means like you're like there so much some people would love to be like the guy in the jungle or some people like to be the person in power or some people like to be the healer and I

feel like the word Shaman has first is usually used in a way that doesn't really represent original Shamanism and second um we have added all of it ourselves to it and so um yeah maybe at the beginning of the podcast you said you're a shaman and I said mhm and you're like can I say that I'm like that's fine we'll talk about it yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah um yeah I usually don't like being called that not because there's anything wrong with with it but there's all the charge that like you have I don't know how many viewers

and I think you're going to have as many views of that word as viewers you have and they all will be charging in some way um so uh I tend not to call myself that yet I don't necessarily disagree that I am that but not because I serve aaska or not because um of the plants but I think there's something beyond beyond plants beyond psychotics that a shaman ultimately is or does and I think that is left out for interpretation a little bit mine is that is like a doctor that does not use Western medicine or even

Eastern medicine is is a combination of a is a person that can do both um diagnose and healing and uses different tools for it plants are one of one of those uh tools but not the only and honestly I would have never it's crazy for me like if you go back I don't know 15 20 years ago and you show me a screen of the future where we're talking here right now and say like hey this is going to be you you're going to be called a shaman and like I'd be like what are you talking about like

in my most atheist moment when I was studying engineering and teaching math and like I would be like I would be like please God please God that I don't believe in uh make this future not happen like I would have been horrified by this idea and and I think like there is something like a little raw diamond that each one of us has at each person that can be polished and that was hidden for me it's like a shaman in Disguise that you don't even know it um and I feel like I've slowly dropped into that

place a lot of it thanks to the plants I don't think I could have gotten to the place where I'm at today with Shamanism without the plants but I do feel that I can continue the path of shamanism without them so um plants help a lot and sometimes is the best tool to help somebody open up but not always and sometimes you can perform Shamanism which is diagnose and healing using using other tools and so uh I'm grateful to the plants because they have taught me it was like University you know I was like going to

to school and taught me how to actually do Shamanism in my own unique way which is not the way and is a way and there are many moments where we are sitting together with you or with someone else and I feel that I immediately know what's going on with you and that has gotten that intuition has gotten much and much better with time sometimes I fail like some doctors sometimes fail at diagnosing even with all the Western tools and technology and everything but I have been noticing that as I'm talking to people I um people have been reporting back that

it it landed so much when like if we were to just do a session right now without plans where we start talking about what's going on with you you might start bringing things up and I might catch everything that's in between the words so you can say like I'm struggling because I don't know I have this pain in my back that never leaves me and this and that and also and I'll be like tell me more be like well maybe like I am feeling lonely about this and that and then like you're saying all of

these things and in between the words there's space and that space tells me it's it's hard to to put in words actually but that space tells me what's actually going on that's making you say those words and and by paying attention to that I feel like I can come up with and it's not come up like out of thin air like if it's like feeling into you it's like using empathy um it's a skill that's hard to both teach and describe but I feel like that's been getting better and better with time and so um and then sometimes things come up

that I'm like where did that come from why did I just say that and the other person's like that I'm like H and that that's the magic right that we were just talking about there's there's a magic that's in I wouldn't even call it in the air but present um that I think the more you practice Shamanism uh and if you have a calling for it the more that it just starts like catching this and and you're using your body as a as a translation between the esoteric and that we cannot see it's it's like yeah you you mentioned it as a

bridge um a bridge or a translator right of one area of existence to another completely different form [Music] um you are laughing what was I laughing about when I said the painting in the back do you have pain in the back I don't but it reminded me of a a journey that I did with you like five years ago M where I did have a pain in the back that you helped guide me through mhm that's why I laughed yeah I was like what an interesting example yeah and and and that's what I'm talking about like I

didn't I wasn't thinking of that moment and probably you weren't even thinking of that moment yet is somewhere and something makes makes some makes me catch it without me knowing that I'm catching it right and I think imagination is a version of that and we all have imagination mhm right but when you imagine like okay I'm gonna draw a painting right now or like something like that or start writing a fiction book where is that coming from to me where that is coming from which it's a very different view that I used to have is that that is already

there there where who knows there it could be a billion light years away um or it can be in a place that cannot be measured in distance that it is part of the fabric of reality and your brain is like an antenna that's that has a specific frequency like in the radio you you start changing the frequency and you start catching different like sending antennas that are sending that right and it's like the brain is that that is basically everything is happening now everything is being sent uh purple dragon with a that spits ice instead of

fire it's like why did I I just say that where did that come from right so it's like my brain attuned to everything is being sent and where you ATT tune is this is one one potential version I believe in that it could I could be wrong and I feel Shamanism has uses that bringing it back yeah and I feel like Shamanism is the practice of getting more and more and more attuned to what's happening in the other person and more and more attuned to knowing what to do about it so the problem is that if you use a word

Shaman most people are not going to think these ways these things in the west people are going to be like oh aasa native um South Afric South americ native South American dark skinn person with feathers that uh shakes a Rattle and and that's why people are some people are really triggered by the word it's like you're just a white guy what are you talking about you're not a shaman I like right I'm not a shaman if the word Shaman means those things to you and and because that word means so many things to so many people um when it

comes to IAS I just call myself a facilitator um internally I do feel there is Shamanism in me and that I can perform Shamanism um in all the ways that I described mhm I I like to use the word filor too facilitator too I don't even even I there's nothing in me that even says that even like relates or connects to Shaman the word Shaman I'm finding that I'm as I'm like really discovering what I have to offer I'm finding that the words Medicine Man are really coming through strong as something that I offer and not just medicine it's not

just actually literal medicine right P medicine it's it's presence and curiosity and the ability to engage with laughter and being just a person that can bring things out in people mhm yeah the idea that medicine must be a substance I think medicine is that which it heals mhmh and L the things you just mentioned can be very very healing yeah actually presence you talk about presence so many people are wounded out of lack of presence from their parents when they were children so wounding needs healing that of which is heal healing is a medicine and if

presence is the thing that they didn't get and they get it that can be literally medicine mm yeah yeah no substance involved but exactly that's that's again very Western approach to yeah to Healing yeah yeah there's this I think that when I think that when people start are starting the healing journey and you know they're not they don't know what they're needing and there might be some reservations of oh just sitting and talking to someone and just having someone listen to me like what is that going to do [Laughter] right does a lot yeah it does a but when

the person's really there and tuned into you and doing what you're talking like not just presence of listening but also doing what you're talking which is listening to the in between mhm and being able to reflect back in a loving way and not a forceful way in a way that's like knows when they're ready for it when they're not ready for it mhm totally sometimes I you talked about bringing laughter as one of the medicines MH and sometimes when it comes to all these topics healing and spirituality I like I love bringing laughter too because it's so taken so

seriously right so when you were telling me about the person saying well what's that going to do what's your presence going to do um I thought of like a kind of like a somewhat playful answer to that because it at the end of the day I think it lands better and it's like well it's not too much about what my presence is going to do it's more about what my presence is going to undo it's going to undo all of the things that should have not been done to start with done yet that uh staying with laughter for a

second one of the thing okay so on to sadness yes seriousness please one of the okay A little sip there one of the things that I've always that I always from the from the first time uh being in a container of yours uh Journey loved is that our ability our connection in the laughter realm and how much that always came through whenever we were engaging uh throughout whatever Retreat or ceremony that we were part of uh that was one of the things that was that was always so healing it was one of the major healing

things about being like I'm in excruciating pain and then you come over and you say something that just looking makes me laugh uncontrollably and to have that to have the laughter come into the realm of pain and be like oh wow you know really it is it is a penetrating medicine and to uh not hold so Gravely pain I have to be like like this no pain I can be like I can enjoy it I can be have a different relationship with it yeah yeah it just I go through the same sometimes when like ah I I was just being too

serious the same exact moment but with that flip of perspective it's like this just changes everything mhm yeah yeah I always enjoy that about about you not not everybody has that that um or another way saying that is that it doesn't come up with from me as natural with everyone as it comes with you with some people but and with and you are definitely one at the top of of those yeah so you're you're carrying that and I am I am predisposed to it but because you're carrying it I pick up on it unconsciously and then when I

communicate with you it comes up that way yeah and that's what I was kind of talking about of the thing that's already there oh that's cool mhm so a lot of it is that you already caring that yeah and I might just pick up on it bring it up and then it's like I am feeding you your own medicine in a way it's already there but you're not as much in contact with it and so I take it out of you and give it back that's yes yes 100% to that love that uh I've been really learning more and I I

may have said this on a podcast before on an episode before but I'm learning more and more that as a Healer as a facilitator as a shaman medicine man whatever the word is that but that you're bringing healing to someone or not bringing healing to someone what we're doing is guiding I don't want to say guiding keeping uh God what's the word reflecting back to them that they are their healer and their medicine is in them MH and what you just said about the laughter is already in me and that's medicine that's medicine that's helping

me mhm that is what we're doing yes just setting a container being like about keeping the the focus back on to it's in there it's in there and we're just going to we're helping you find it m yes yeah yeah um it is common in the world of healers to think that he a Healer is someone who heals rather than someone who helps somebody heal themselves mhm and my first experiences with facilitators serving aasa was that on steroids like I am going to give you the wisdom that you need to hear and a lot of lot of times

were were words of wisdom that sounded really wise and sounded really true and that I am pretty sure were true for them in a specific situation and it's like let's say I just said this thing about you and the laughter and now I'm like actually this is the first time I said that right mhm but now that I said it I can remember it and then maybe I I I see that it landed with you and so in the future I'm with somebody else and if I were to be like Oh I'm going to use

that same thing I said to Joel now that person might not really understand what's going on they might hear words that sound true and that are true ultimately yet something might be off it's like uh it doesn't fully fit but people are not trained most of the times to tap into that subtlety so what's the problem there is that like it's like a truth that it is taken out of context might become a falsity is might not become true anymore and that was a lot of what I experienced at first which was shamans or facilitators just dropping

truth bombs one after the other that they had on their sleeves like like they read it in a book or they said it once and it was true and now they are remembering it and saying it and at first I was like what's going on that sounds really wise I want to remember everything they're saying it's all so amazing and then I was new to Healing work too so you know it's like a new area where you don't know how to navigate and then there was a very very quiet part of me saying something sof

here without having at all the capacity to identify what that was and now looking back I know exactly what was going on with them um and why they were doing that as I started identifying that I wanted to become less of that and Landing more into the reason why I'm a Healer is because I am here to help you heal yourself and to guide you through the process of how to do that and not to do it directly on you um so yeah yeah it's uh as I hearing that and then I it it makes me reflect on when I

first started facilitating and having that there's a there's a there's that loud part of you or me that was like I I feel like I need to have the gem to say I feel like I need to have the words of wisdom in this moment and it took it takes a while to like work through that and realize oh no that isn't it's okay if I'm just hear in silence it literally is more possibly probably more powerful if I'm just here in presence with the person as they speak to me and they're going to come to what they need on their own if

I'm just like I'm listening and it's coming through me and it's almost energetically without me saying anything what they're saying and expressing to me is going in and then coming back to them and then they're going oh this is what it is yes totally I wish I would have come to that much quicker took it seems to it took me much longer than you well I had the blessing of having teachers who had gone through it already yeah that's great you know mhm yeah to be able to go go to them and say I really want to blah blah blah and them

saying I really want to say the right thing and them saying can you be with not saying anything mhm or can you be with not saying the right thing right even even hard harder yeah yeah totally yeah um feels like it's nearing the end but I want to bring up you've you said during the break right before the energy healing that you felt like we brought up a bunch of topics that we didn't wrap up and I mean we might not have time to wrap it all up but I just want to do a check in with you on that if that was

something that felt unresolved for you um well I was putting myself in the position of the audience and I feel like the death topic was left somewhere in the middle like you asked that question which I can't remember and I started maybe setting the ground to answer it I guess not consciously but I that I noticed that that's what was happening and then we left and I feel the question was unanswered um because you mentioned something related to my experiences and my relationship with death uh and that was the first question yeah and I don't know I just ranted on

something I can't remember um but I I do know what what was left without saying I think if you want to go back there yeah I I would if if you feel up to it sure um okay so I was saying that my relationship with death changed since psychotics so I think I talked about everything that happened before psychotics MH and right yeah what happened after is is a bunch of things first as as a quick recap of what happened before is that I was putting it on the shelf and ignoring it and on a in

a way that's being an atheist is one of the worst possible existences if you if you think about it in one there's a perspective where that is really rough because if you love life and then it's all over man so hopeless right it's it's it's rough you're going You're Going To Fear it most most likely um and even whether you want to admit it or not and that was definitely my case so what psychedelics did was first it started bringing it up the topic of death is a topic of today's journey and the topic has a bunch of

potential uh experiences either you have a near-death experience you cross into the other world into the underworld you hang out with the dead for a while you hang out with the angels for a while you um hang out with God for a while and these are all experiences that all of them each one were so new to me and they were opening me up to the potential for having the other P another perspective Beyond atheism and now it's like I have all of these other perspectives where's where atheism does not feel to me that is what's actually

happening where there's no God where there's uh where after death everything's gone um obviously the word God is way more charged than the word Shaman you will definitely have as many interpretations of that word as uh as people are are in the world so um yeah so obviously it's not probably needed to say that when I mean God I don't mean the classic bearded guy in the sky mhm um my God has shaven oh yeah oh clean cut yeah it's King c um yeah so he has a mohawk oh yeah amazing yeah he's he's like an Avant

guard God very cool yeah likes Spank Rock and yeah few earrings so um so even though I still keep that as a possibility I have all of these other ones now and the more I explore them the more that some of them just ring trer to my heart and some of them for moment felt like they rang true to my heart because I was so afraid of death and I wanted that one to be the the one right oh yeah and it is really hard to confront that and to admit it to oneself it's like my belief is stemming

from fear and I honestly for your audience I would say that it is highly likely that whatever belief you have around death is probably a mask for your fear I can't speak for everyone because you know I'm sure there's a lot of people who where is that where where that is not the case and if somebody listening to this is like I'm definitely not one of them I would encourage that person to first if you're moving so fast into saying I'm not one of them isn't that coming from from a place that isn't that to be distrusted right that that rush to

be like uh no I'm not I'm not one of them hm why did you say it so fast why do you say it with so much desperation and I am not pointing fingers at anybody that was definitely me and I can identify it in a lot of people um and I'm not asking people to stop believing what they believe in but can we identify that it's a belief and that if it's around death there's a high likelihood that it might be masking some level of fear um even if you're a Christian and you believe in heaven and all of that

could it be question would you par of the interruption would you say that it's fear of death or related to death or is it could be related to a fear of something going on in life why not why not say more you say you're belief of what happens after death is based in a fear and I'm wondering if it's just based in a fear of what not knowing what happens after death or based in fear of being afraid possibly of the way that life is unfolding the way or being afraid to live being afraid to

experience mhm I think is both um I think when we are talking about these topics dual starts breaking a little bit I mean we would have a tendency to go to it's either one or the other and I I would probably my my heart tells me it's both um like you can't really fear death if you don't fear life and you can't be really fearing life if you don't fear death it just I could try to explain what that means but it doesn't feel right to explain it like just I'll just drop it there and you can ponder on it

or or not and then another thing that happened with psychadelic especially with aasa is that and we were talking about this a few days ago which is how much it has put me in touch with my mortality rather than with death so this sounds similar but for me it's very different it's like I fear more my mortality than my death I fear more the fact that I am going to die than once I'm dead and like sometimes it just took me to places where I can see and feel the passing of time and how every second is sacred and

how every second is lost and it's like so freaking intense in those moments it's like another second passed another second past what have I done with this second have I brought presence to this moment have I brought gratitude to the fact that I was alive Another Second and it's like oh my God like give me more time like and then I start like really getting in touch with what's happening inside me and I'm really grateful to to those experiences because they have I would say pushed me to stop ignoring the topic of death where to the

level in which I was ready and one of the reasons why I keep experiencing it over and over again when I drink aasa is because I was not ready to take it all in in one go and so I experience it I integrate it and eventually I'm ready for more and then I experience it in a different level and I integrated and today I feel that I'm I have been so in touch with that fear and that I can identify much more when I belief could stem from that fear and when I belief could stem more from what my heart is

telling me is true and yeah I really I am less fearful of death today because what my heart tells me is true is not atheism and it's not it's all over um maybe you're curious about what is my heart telling me but I think that would require a very very very long explanation because I if I could summarize it I would I would but it could potentially just not make it justice like if I say just a few words on it probably the audience and you and everyone will just fill in the holes which will probably not be as I'm

experiencing it but I experience a world extremely magical and life and death are part of it and I yeah I think I'm going to probably leave it there um and yeah and that feels feels good to believe that from a place that doesn't seem to be fear-based yet I'm always going to be inquiring is this out of fear of death is this out of fear of death the more I do it the more that those who can see it in me are more likely to inquire within themselves which I hope that it would bring some healing into the around this

topic which is pretty big yeah it is sizely yeah what I loved about what you just said about how you kept what's in your heart in your heart and kept it precious to you is like that's your experience that's your experience and your experience matters thanks and to have and to like try to share your experience fully and have other people fill in the holes and then like if you get wind of holes that are being put in like fillings that are being put in the holes that you didn't get fully get to explain like that

doesn't quite feel good cuz then you're like MH it doesn't quite feel good to have to I know for me personally when I think of it it doesn't feel good to have people fill in the holes and like be like but that's not my experience correct so beautifully put yeah that's that sounds that sounds right yeah the when we speaking of everybody's experience matter the Curiosity and what we're talking about of like oh I'm an atheist or I'm a Christian and then like having a conversation like that feels like an ongoing conversation of being like I really want to know what's going

on in this hole but I don't want to fill it in myself I'm curious do you have more time to share a little bit more about your what's in your heart like that's the kind of care I would want someone to have with me yes all you can do then is give that mhm and those who see it will learn from it yeah and most likely you will attract people people attracting not like like a magnet I mean you right that could be true too but people are going to be interested if they are interested

in that and you're going to have a nice Bond around that yeah definitely it's also speaking that out loud realizing just how difficult it is to not fill in holes like to really be able to be live in that space of oh I see that there's something I don't quite know yet yeah will you share what it is your experience of that thing yeah uh it's so hard to not automatically fill in the hole yeah yes yes we want to make sense of things we don't understand or know very much and since we're talking about death MH I

think if you follow what you just said down at the end of the day is fear of death MH because not understanding is fear of the unknown and the biggest unknown is death the great unknown the great unknown and so if we can become maybe if we can become friends with death a little bit more by staying open to one's beliefs being a mask U for the fear of death and we become friends by doing healing around it then one might become less afraid of the unknown and also less prone to feeling holes of things that

one doesn't understand amazing love it I love it I'm going to save that one in my and then you see again when it right so that I can drop a fantastic great I'll give you the transcript so you can have word for word while yeah uh I feel like that is a wonderful place to land yeah I agree um wow Ivon thank you so much for joining me and sharing uh your thoughts and your experience U thank you for inviting me it I had a lot of fun and it was a big pleasure and thanks so much for the

energy work and for giving a platform for people to do a little bit of hitting even just listening that's awesome I'm so happy these spaces are available now awesome thank you um would you like to close with a hug since we started with a hug always thank you uh and to um all of you out there again I invite you to make a little room for healing in your lives and I will see you next

time thanks for making a little room for my podcast I'd love to be a part of your journey too follow me on Instagram at a little room for healing for news updates offerings and connection to book a session with me go to www.al little roomfor healing.com if you'd like to support the podcast follow the link at the bottom of the episode description have a beautiful day