Open Heart Healing Podcast

Hello, welcome to the Open Heart Healing podcast. I am your host, Vesta Hurlbutt. This is a podcast with empowering insights, actionable steps, and inspiring stories to guide you and me to self-love, self-discovery, and joy on your path to fulfillment. Enjoy this episode.

Welcome to the Open Heart Healing podcast. My name is Vesta Hurlbutt, and today we have Ivan Ivan Chakran. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Well, first, thank you for having me in your podcast.

I am a medicine facilitator. I've been serving Medicine, Wachuma, which is most commonly known as medicine, and Medicine, which is our African root bark for over a decade. I've served probably over 10,000 people. I've been to 20 countries serving this medicine.

I've held over 500 ceremonies, and I've been doing healing work for a very long time, and maybe the other relevant aspect is that a lot of people who do healing work are fully inclined to do it only from the spiritual side, and even though I don't discard that aspect of it, I think it's essential to do healing work. I also include a lot of science and psychology in it, which I also consider essential, um, since I I come from a atheist and engineering background. Spirituality was definitely not part of my life, and I am grateful for that background, and even though I don't consider myself an atheist anymore or even close to that, it has given me a very, um, I would say, healthy way of having skepticism and analyzing things and trying to explain them in ways that people can understand them. And so what I do today is I help people do their own healing work by mixing both spirituality and science.

When you say, so when you I I come from a similar background, I'm guessing, atheist, I'm not an engineer, but very scientific-based that like spiritual stuff is like way too out there to believe. I mean, I come from a very Christian, some people in my family are very, very Christian, so I have that like people believe in God, but it's not a it's a different kind of spiritual than I feel like medicine or what I feel like I believe. I say like I believe in the universe or whatever. Um, so how how does how does somebody who's an an atheist and a engineer transition from going from that it's very to me it's very like I want to say type A personality, very list-oriented.

This is how things are done. Science says it's this way, and that's how it's going to be done. I don't there's none of none of these outside forces at work, um, making people believe it or whatever. How does somebody switch or get into this field after that or are you still an engineer practicing in an as an engineer?

No, I have actually never practiced. I used to teach math and chemistry, um, but I left Argentina, which is where I'm from, uh, before I could even start practicing. So, um, and it's a great question because in my atheist times, I would hear about, let's say, born-again Christians or people who shifted, and I I was I was so that such a logical engineer mind that I I would ask myself that same question, like, how could you switch? Like, it's almost like you think, or at least in my case, I think that I was the one that was awake when everybody else was just asleep.

It's like, how can you fall asleep once you're awake? And it's so funny because I see the I see it kind of the opposite way now, but I can explain it in a way that my my idea is to resonate with everybody. So whether you are ultra-spiritual or a complete atheist, the way in which I bring healing into the world is so that everybody can resonate, and probably it's because I have benefited so much from doing medicine and healing work as an atheist or ex-atheist. The fact that I was lucky enough to land my first ceremony with a scientist has helped me open up to it.

So when you asked what made the switch, it was definitely Medicine for me. And today I don't talk about Medicine as the solution for everything, as it is very commonly talked about by many people, especially many facilitators. Um, I talk it I talk about it as a tool because I'm pretty sure that that's what it is. It's not the end, it's not the healing, but it's a tool for healing.

In my case, it was a tool for helping me see, um, my my own shortcomings around healing work and many many other things. But at the end of the day, some people after the ceremony do the work, and some don't. And I wouldn't say that it is up to them. It is up to a combination of how fortunate you are with the facilitator you had, how well guided you were, um, a little bit of your own personal, um, your own personality, your desire to the combination of many things, right?

So, um, I would say I was fortunate enough to have the right combination of things that after my first ceremony, first, I wouldn't have had a ceremony if my facilitator wouldn't have been on the science side of things, but he was very spiritual. And so for me, it was a really incredible dichotomy that I just couldn't imagine that two things could coexist. How could you my my first facilitator was a chemist also. So I was like, how could you be a chemist and also spiritual?

Like, I my my mind was that closed where it just those two things couldn't fit in the same person. But because he I resonated with his uh with his science side, I I would say he earned my respect, and thus I opened up to other things he had to offer. And when I started learning about healing work and spirituality, it started making sense to me because I don't think that the problem is that it doesn't make sense. Is that either you are or you are not open to it based on your own upbringing.

So once I started opening up to it, yeah, a full universe opened up inside of me as well. Yes, I love that story because I wrote I I like to take notes as as you talk sometimes so I can remember questions to ask. And I I was going to like one of the things that's because you it's sometimes it's hard to open, and not only is it hard to open, I think sometimes it's hard to stay open. You know, in this world and the world that I live in.

I I I'm open. I'm very open, but I it it's been a very long three years of staying open that it's it's been sometimes I I of course I have ebbs and flows and stuff like that. But just hearing that if somebody comes to you to work and they're like, I want to work with you as a um healer, or you you be my healer, and what if they're not ready? Because when I hear Medicine, I'm not I'm not anti-anything.

I'm open. But um, you hear a lot of well, you hear a lot of like people are like completely it's life-changing and all that stuff, but they I also hear you hear a lot of like purging happens and a lot of like that kind of gets a little fear to me. Is that something like do you work up to that or is that something you do right away? Depends on the person.

Okay. My very first psychedelic experience was with Medicine. I didn't have any mind-altering substance before that. I never was into alcohol.

Um, I've been an athlete and super into healthy living and all of that. Plus the addition of my dad, uh, who pretty much branded in my brain the idea that if anything is mind-altering, your brain is dying, basically. Um, so he was very old school in that way. Um, yet there are some people who are not ready, and that is true.

However, most people are more ready than what their fear tells them. So a lot of their perception of readiness is informed by their fear, which is not the actual readiness. So what I do with people who are really afraid is not to try to convince them. It's to really get to the truth of their readiness, and to do that a lot of times, all you need to do is name the fear.

So if I were to work with you and you're like, hey, I've been thinking about doing this. I don't know if I'm ready. I'm really or well, if you say I'm really afraid, you're already a step forward. You already have acknowledged your fear.

Some people are like, I don't know if I'm ready. And and so I could start asking questions, like, why do you feel you're not ready? Because of this, because of that. And a lot of times, this and that is a mask or is a cover.

Because I think that, uh, if I do this, then I might leave my husband, or if I do this, uh, I'm just going to purge too much, and I just don't like purging. They're not really acknowledging fear. So I'm like, so are you ultimately not ready for this because you're afraid of purging? Are you afraid of this?

And a lot of times they say yes, and we would go even deeper into exploring how how strong is that fear? Is it as strong as as you are feeling it right now, or by naming it and acknowledging, and if I were to tell you, uh, give you, um, some reinforcement, either that those things are not going to happen, or that if those things start happening, whatever it is that you're afraid, that you're going to be properly held, that you're going to have somebody there for you, um, and that most people you're going to can handle it, that you will be okay. Because at the end of the day, most of the fears come down to the fear of, am I going to be okay? And that's how I work with people who feel they are not ready, and I would say most of the times, the vast majority of the times, they realize they were more ready than what their fear was informing them.

And every now and then, I do encounter some people who, yeah, they are actually not ready, and I do not recommend it to them. But that's the minority of the people. Yeah. And so when you do the journey, I don't know if that's what you call it, but that's what I'm going to call it.

Um, for now, you can correct me. There's a huge uptick, upswing with um, different medicines right now. I know medicine and MDMA, that's all coming too, and then there's microdosing, you know, that people do for certain things. And then there's like the hero's journey.

And do you do all of that or do you just I mean, I know you named the African root and the Medicine, but do you believe in all of that or are you kind of just with the Medicine and Um, well, I think you asked two different questions. One is what do I work with, and the other one is what do I believe in. Um, okay, yeah. Yeah.

I believe in believe in all of them. I believe all of them, uh, have huge potential for healing, and I believe it without needing to use faith. I believe it because I've seen it. And most people who consume the plants or some of them are not plants, um, in the right setting, with the right intention, and the right facilitator, if all of those things are right, I think the chances of not finding true meaningful healing that could be life-changing in many ways are very slim.

Most of the times, that's going to happen. Now, the point there is to understand which plant, with which facilitator, and for which person, and at which moment of their life. So, um, certain plants could be good for somebody, but not at the beginning, maybe later on. Um, it depends on the person, how much resistance they have, how much fear they have in in them.

Um, so for somebody, it might be easier to start with half a gram of mushrooms, something that puts them in a little bit of an altered state, but without bringing too much out if they are truly terrified. And then they start realizing how much that gives them, and then makes them a little bit more inclined to internally to go into a next step. But some people are like, yeah, I'm ready. Like, some people come with the opposite question.

I'm like, hey, I've been looking for this my whole life. It's been calling me. I can't believe I finally found it. I'm so excited.

I'm so ready for this. Um, but I personally work with these three plants, uh, because I find them to have the most healing potential. Um, I know how to work with them really well. And I think at the end of the day, it's more like what resonates with each person.

And these plants have changed my life, and I I love offering them. It is a passion and absolute pleasure. I actually have a friend who did a hero's journey of medicine, I think medicine and MDMA. I'm not exactly sure, and she has it transformed her life.

And I know a few people who have done the hero's journey, and they have very different results. Um, one the one she I mean, when I tell you it transformed it transformed her, we make fun of her a little bit because she always now she says, nothing really matters with a few expletives. Nothing matters, you know, kind of sort of. And I'm just curious about the the results and what people might expect if they are going to go into a journey with you or because I, you know, if I'm jumping in, I'm usually two feet in, and I'm like, yes, I want.

And I I love the way my friend, she went into it with zero expectations. She wasn't like, she just went in with an open heart and an open mind and like, how can I be the best me I can be or whatever. And then, um, she had an amazing outcome. And I don't think anybody had a terrible outcome, but hers was just so amazing.

It makes everybody want to do one. Like, that's how amazing her journey was. Do you often have like the different levels of results? Oh, yeah.

Um, and I I would say my first Medicine was kind of like your friend's. Completely transformative, contagious. Any person that would get in touch with me, then next for the next six months would end up going into a journey because I just it was just me in the form of joy and excitement and smiling and, um, my mom did it, which I would have never expected it. Um, because she's like, whatever you did, I want it.

She's like, it's so contagious. So, I would say one of the I don't think I've talked about this that much, um, but one of the if you will, painful sounds a little bit too much, maybe a little bit lesser volume of pain, but some some mildly painful aspect of my career, if you will, is to not see everybody go through what I went through. I want that so badly. I want that so much for everyone.

And in every ceremony that I hold, there is people who go through that, and that fills my heart. Some people who go through something a little bit less transformative, but also meaningful. And sometimes there's it's not very common, but sometimes there's people that don't find any benefits from it. It is it is rare.

I would say it is definitely doesn't happen in every ceremony, but some people either have too too mild of an experience, no matter how much they take. I've given people like 20 times what I would normally give, and we're talking about like 20 doses in one go. Wow. Um, because yeah, and I would even be scared myself.

I'd be like, am I am I going to lose like, am I going to lose him if like, I'm afraid of giving this dose. And then they don't feel anything. They barely experienced anything. And, uh, and then they leave disappointed, and that hurts because it hurts because I really, as I mentioned, I'm really passionate about, and I started facilitating out of that contagiousness, you know, that that passion that I felt from the first time.

I don't think anyone is a child, and when they ask them, what do you want to be when you are an adult? They don't say astronaut, they say medicine facilitator. I think it's amazing. I think it's awesome.

I I listen to I remember I'm just now remembering. I listen to a podcast 15 years ago, 10 years ago, I don't know, of one of of a fighter, a UFC fighter who did an Medicine thing, and I was like, I want to do that. I was not I was not ready then. But I was like, I want to do that.

Because just hearing his that those So when you do your ceremony, is it just an individual or is it a group of people? Or both. And every now and then, well, actually fairly often people are like, can you do individually for me? And I discourage them a lot because one of parts of our ceremony is after everything is over, we sit together in a circle and we share our experience.

And we call that the sharing circle. And in in the sharing circle, people people receive other people's journeys by listening, and when they are doing that, they understand their own journey so much more. So Medicine can be very clear and direct, and for some people is a little bit murky and not clear, and they come out of the experience feeling confused. And then they hear other people talk about their experience, and then everything starts making a lot more sense.

And so there is an aspect of healing in a group that it multiplies it, um, than if you do it by yourself. If you do it by yourself, in a way you are subject to luck. If you get the best experience ever, great. But if you are end up being somewhat confused, yes, the facilitator can probably help you make sense of it.

Yet, there's nothing like listening to other people's direct experience to fill in the holes that your own have left. And so, um, yeah, I would say healing in community is so much more efficient and much nicer too. People have a much better time. Do you see a lot of people who know each other try to do it together?

Or is it usually um, relatively strangers together? I mean, sometimes people come with a friend or two, with their couple. Sometimes people come with their kids or parents. But it's usually a small group of two or three at the most, and the ceremonies I hold, um, have 25 to 30 people.

So, but yeah, but that's pretty beautiful too, because at first, everyone is a stranger to each other, and 48 hours later, when the the whole weekend is over, everybody feels like they just made their 25 new best friends. They everybody feels so connected. And so, and I can I have a theory of why that happens. And here's where my, uh, I would say, scientific mindset kicks in.

Okay. So at least the way in which I see it, and it's not exactly I'm going to say something scientific, but it's more like trying to understand the mechanism, the mechanisms of how things work. And the reason why I believe that people leave feeling so connected with each other, feeling best friends, feeling like they found a new family or something, or family member, in 48 hours, is because in order to make a best friend, what you need usually is a lot of time. You need years of experiences together.

But that is somewhat misleading because it's not about how much time you spend together. It's what does that time facilitate? And what that time facilitates is intimacy, is getting to know each other in ways that are really deep and profound and vulnerable. Um, you know, you know your if you have a best friend, you know their dark sides, you know their light sides, you know, um, their shortcomings, their blind spots.

They have shared deep things with you. They cried with you. Right? This is what a best friend usually means.

And to to do that in a normal average societal setting, you need a lot of time. Right? With these ceremonies, in 48 hours, you have heard somebody talk about their deepest things. You they have cried in front of you.

They maybe have given you their most meaningful hug of their life because in that moment, thanks to the plants, they were open up they were open enough to be able to do that. Um, and so making deep meaningful connections is about the depth of the connection, not about how much time. Usually you need a lot of time, but in these ceremonies, that happens so much quicker because people open up and go deeper in just a few days. So, um, yeah, so that's why I think people make such deep meaningful connections because people are much more open and much more willing to be vulnerable and to share.

Yeah, I think anytime when people get together and they're vulnerable together, it kind of opens up that, um, any kind of fear you might have of I don't know what whatever fear people, you know, I think it varies on who you are, but it might be a fear of judgment, a fear of not being loved, a fear of could be all the things. But it kind of goes away when you're both vulnerable, which is really, really beautiful actually. Mhm. Yeah.

That helps. That helps you connect with somebody so fast. And so deeply. You said it's 48 hours.

Is how long is it like a dinner and then you like a Friday night dinner and then a Saturday Medicine and then a Sunday ceremony-ish? Um, we pretty much pack it full of uh ceremonies. So in those 48 hours, we do four ceremonies. Two ceremonies with Medicine, which are at night.

Um, and they last between four to seven hours depending on the person. Um, so let's say we start at 8:00. Some people by midnight or 1:00 a. m.

are already asleep. Some others go till 3:00 or 4:00 a. m. and then they fall asleep.

And then we wake up the next morning, and then we do a different medicine called Wachuma or most commonly known as medicine. And for those people who have never heard of medicine, they most likely heard about Medicine. And Medicine is a cactus that contains mescaline as its main active alkaloid. Um, and medicine is the same thing.

It's a cactus with mescaline as the main alkaloid, even though the experience is very different. And that's because the main alkaloid is not the only thing that's affecting the experience. There's many others as well. Um, one way in which I blend science and spirituality is spiritual people, sorry, scientific people would say, the reason why, um, why Medicine and medicine have, uh, they create a different experience is because they have, despite having the main alkaloid being the same, they have many other alkaloids or chemicals, uh, who are that are different.

Um, that's what a scientific person would say. It's because the chemicals are different. A spiritual person, who doesn't care for science, would say, no, that's because the spirits living inside of each one of these plants are different. And so you're inviting a different spirit inside of you, and thus the experience is different because you're meeting a different spirit.

And what I would say is that they are both right. And not only they are both right, they are both talking about the same thing. So to me, the spirit of a plant in spiritual terms is its chemistry in scientific terms. Another way of saying that is a spirit in the ethers represents itself or shows itself in the physical world as a combination of specific alkaloids.

And from the other side is a combination of specific alkaloids is a portal or a, um, the keys to the entrance, um, to the ethers where you will meet that spirit. And so it's very I found it very beneficial to talk in these ways. First because I believe it's true. But second because people from all all backgrounds can connect with what you're saying, and on top of that, they can open up to the other side that they weren't as open to.

Um, so that was a little bit side story. Uh, but anyway, so we do that in the morning, the medicine cactus. Um, and that is a little bit of a less psychedelic experience, less visionary, and more emotional. So for those who have taken MDMA, um, also known as ecstasy for those who like to party, um, is it's more of an heart-opening experience where your heart just cracks open and you feel all this love just flowing through it, both like outward and inward.

You start feeling a lot of love for those who are around you. You start feeling a lot of love for those who you have yet to forgive, that you have resentment holding, you know, your mom, your ex-husband, whoever, like somebody you haven't talked to for 10 years. Um, but also you have a lot of capacity to let love in. So you start realizing all the people that love you, maybe even your friends, uh, in ceremony, friends, I call them friends now.

Yes. The other participants, um, you start expressing a lot of love for you, and you can let that in, and that can be very healing. So we do a visionary plant like Medicine during the night, and a heart-opening during the day. And then we repeat that.

We do that on Friday night and Saturday morning. And then we repeat it again, Saturday night and Sunday morning. And people leave home, yeah, usually feeling pretty pretty ready to live a life that is much more in line with, um, the life that they want to live, a much more joyful self. That's that that sounds amazing.

It really does. Um, what happens if somebody comes there and they do it, and they have this amazing experience, do a lot of people go home and like quit their jobs or, you know, because I think at least here where I am in well, my in my job, in my career, we there's so many people who don't like their jobs, which is why I have this podcast, which is why I'm trying to build other things because I don't want to do my job forever. It doesn't bring me joy. It doesn't like there's it it does in some ways, in some days.

Some days it doesn't. My point is like, I see so many people with that just they're just miserable in their life, and then if they have a eye-opening experience to where they can experience love for their for themselves and for their life and just for everything that is around them, is it possible to fall in love with your life as it is doing a job you don't love, you know, I mean, does that making any sense? It makes a lot of sense. Well, let me start by saying that that's a common fear people have.

They're like, I'm afraid I'm going to come and I'm going to leave my job. Um, and here's a little bit of the paradox, and is that if you end up leaving your job, it's a decision that you will be making from an empowered place, like from it's it's a scary thought before you have landed in a place where that decision makes sense. Right? Yeah.

Like from before doing that, you're afraid of your finances. You're afraid that you're not going to pay your bills. Stability. And so from that place, stability, um, status, um, identity, a lot of people identify with their jobs.

Um, so from that place, quitting your job seems terrifying. Um, but it's a little bit of a paradox because once you have done the journey, if you decide to do that, no one's going to force you. You are deciding it because you are in the position of seeing that that's the best for you and that's what you actually want. And from that position, what seems scarier is to have never done the journey and never realized how much this is taking away your joy.

And maybe you connect with joy in a way where joy becomes a priority rather than, um, status or identity. So, with that being said, I don't want to scare people. It's still not the most common reaction to quit your job, but I have seen it, but those people were much happier after doing that, and they would be like, yeah, it is still scary to quit my job, but it is scarier to keep going the way I am and not to quit it. Maybe they find a new trust in the universe, and they're like, I don't know what's going to come, but I also trust that I'm going to be okay.

Right. Another reaction is for people to be like, I realize that it's not that I hate my job, is that I overwork, and I ended up hating it because I'm overdoing it. Um, and so some people start whatever it is that they change is something that most likely will be much more in line with what's going to bring them true joy in life. It's probably, I mean, I I could be completely wrong here, but it's probably something deep down they know they don't like or they know they don't want to have anymore.

So it might just be their their empowerment to get out of that situation that they're unhappy in. And I I actually love that. I think that's a great I mean, I I don't think I I wouldn't quit my job. I I'm too I don't I mean, maybe.

I don't trust maybe. Yeah, no, um, Maybe that's what your journey is about. It's about trusting but you know, we can't know that ahead of time. Um, but I'm glad that you're saying maybe because who knows, right?

Right, right. So in my journey of like finding myself and becoming an emotionally open human, which is I told you is up and down for me. I I struggle my one of my biggest struggles in my life is trust. It's not trusting humans.

It's not trusting like, you know, I trust people but I don't in a sense, whatever. But it's really hard for me to completely and fully release and let go and just trust that the universe is taking care of me. It's a it's a I do it most days, but that's a hard that's hard to just open and blindly trust that I got that I'm doing all the right things and, you know, putting myself out there like that. So.

Yes, it is hard. And I guess I just want to mention to you that you're not alone there. I think that is probably true for most, most, most people. And I can even say and venture into the idea that learning to trust the universe is one of the main journeys we all go through in our life.

And because our trust has been broken for all of us in different ways. Somebody might have had abusive parents, so those who, um, are supposed to take care of you, but you are supposed to trust them most are betraying your trust. Maybe you've been, uh, your trust has have been broken as a teenager by your first love. Maybe the trust has been broken to you by God the first time that you thought you had it, and then, I don't know, a loved one died in a in a car crash, or your parents lost everything they owned, which, you know, coming from Argentina, it's a common thing there.

So, um, and so all in all of these ways, we do lose our trust toward the universe in one way or another. And I feel like recovering it, it is part of our healing journey as a whole. Um, and I think a lot of that comes from healing itself. So when you start healing, one of the things that happens very common is to see that those things that broke your trust at some point, not necessarily immediately, but at some point, they seem to have been working in your favor rather than against you.

What seem to be something that was against you, eventually, it is likely to land in a place that worked for you, whether it is because you learn a big lesson, because you became stronger, because you, um, became more compassionate, uh, wiser. Um, and I think that those moments, if we if one has their eyes open to receive them, one can start earning the trust again. And so it's almost like a game. You lose your trust as a child, and then it is part of your job as a human being to regain it as an adult.

And healing work plays a huge part in doing that. Mhm. Yeah, that's that's so I'm I'm tearing up over here because I I it's it's so beautiful. Just and I try I think we probably everybody tries to find maybe a new pivot, a new thing, a new way of thinking about something, or why like instead of saying, why did this happen to me?

I can be I remember and it's such a for me it was such an innate thing that I have had I put my I put my arm through a window once, uh, once when I was in I was 11. I was little, and I cut my arm really bad. Like to the point where I cut nerves, arteries, tendons, my functional my function of it is still not great. But I remember I used to say, I was I was 11.

I was in sixth grade. I used to say, oh, I just it happened to me because now I I had to go I was right-handed, and then I had to become left-handed. I used to say, oh, it only happened to me because, um, none of us kids are left-handed, and God wanted me to be left-handed like my dad. And I used to say that, and I was fine with that.

Like it was I was totally fine with that. Like I never thought like, oh, why me? And then but now as I get older, I I I don't say why me. Really, I don't.

But I definitely have moments where I have thought, why me? Probably, you know. But like when you're young, you're just like, I got this. I can do this.

I can do anything. And then you get older and you get, yeah, it's just a different I do feel like I can do anything now. I feel like I'm almost like superwoman. So maybe my trust is coming back.

Mhm. I like that. And I'm pretty impressed by your 11-year-old self. Right?

I mean, it's so cool. I I never even thought about it until like in the last few years that it never meant anything to me. I just was like, oh, it's fine. That's yeah, that's that's pretty amazing.

Not every kid reacts like that. Um, but yeah, a lot of us go through that. I I can talk about it not because I have overcome it. I still go through moments of distrust.

I I'm just observing that the places where I used to say why me, for moments I'm like, thank God that this happened to me. And, um, I think that brings a little bit more natural trust in me and to the point, I think eventually you cross a threshold where when something bad happens, you naturally, if you have done enough of this, cycles, if you will, uh, you could potentially start trusting more that you are going to be okay. Um, and I think it's a journey for all of us. I'm still I I would still consider myself a beginner at that.

Yeah. Yeah, sometimes my my coach, she one of the things she talks about regularly is acting different in the same situation. And when I do that, I celebrate it. If I act like if I'm if I act different in the same situation, I celebrate it.

I try to celebrate it. I'll be like, listen to what I did today. I didn't whatever, I don't know, because I have different reactions for different things. But I try to celebrate it to make sure so I remember that I am growing.

I'm not like but I'm still new, you know, I'm still a beginner. So, yeah. I think that's a great mindset to have. It will only keep you learning.

It's it is because there was a point in time in my life where I not that long ago essentially, like probably within the last decade, but I'm trying to make myself better. I'm trying to make myself better, and I I felt instead of celebrating the little wins I was having in changing my life, I was shaming myself because I wasn't all the way done, if that makes any sense. Like I was like, oh, that's not perfect. So whatever perfect might be, I would shame myself instead of saying like, you're doing great.

Like, you're doing great. And now I feel and but the whole when you change that, when I changed that whole mindset from shame to positive, it changed my world. It changed everything in my world. I was about to cry.

It changed everything. I put nothing I try to put love all out, and I get so much love in in return that when I'm not getting love in, like somebody's like nasty to me or something, I'm almost like shocked because I like I'm like, okay, it's just a reminder. That's all. No big deal.

But yeah, my sister, I get on her nerves because I'm always like, positive out, positive in. She's like, I know. Well, what what created that shift in you? I'm curious.

So, there was a few things. There was um, a fight with my mom. I know, shocker. Um, and then I, you know, we all have a little bit of mommy issues probably, a lot of us.

I had a heartbreak, a relationship breakup. Mhm. Um, and then, uh, my son graduated from high school, and so he kind of like is going out on his own, and he doesn't need me anymore. And I felt this intense sadness and a loneliness.

And so I, um, reached out and I got the I was I took this uh course to become an empowerment strategist. And you just dig out from the core, you go into the core and like work your way out, like peel all the onion layers and I'm still peeling the layers. But I didn't realize I had so many layers, you know. And uh, so that's what that and that was three years ago that I started.

I mean, I've been always been working on myself a little, but that was when I really went deep in the emotional stuff. I was like, oh, this is like now I feel like I'm living my best life, and I'm still doing the same thing I was doing before. And probably back then, when those things were happening, that was a part of you that wished that those things wouldn't have happened. Oh, 100%.

Oh, 100%. Like there was like, and then it's like, and all of it is like, why me? Another heartbreak. Why me?

My mom's terrible to me, you know, or whatever. And I don't even think like that anymore. I'm like, I'm happy. I mean, you know, so, yeah, definitely.

So it was a huge shift. Mhm. So that's what I mean with like those things that we used to wish that they wouldn't have happened to see how much they have given us. I think they slowly again, if you're open and having having your eyes open to seeing that, I I feel that that at least personally brings more trust in me.

Yeah. So, and I think before we we switch, uh, I noticed one thing that is that it feels really good to trust. But in order to really, if you will, own the trust that is available, you first need to lose it because you don't know what it feels like to trust until you distrust. It is in the comparison and the duality, um, that one can really enjoy trusting.

As a child, if you have some sort of ideal childhood, uh, whatever that means, your trust until your trust is broken, you don't know your that you're trusting. You are trusting, but you just don't know it. Um, and so you can't also really fully own and enjoy that you are trusting because you don't know any different. And so I feel like there's something about losing and re-earning it that not only gives us a lot of wisdom and skills and power and strength, but also that helps us, we are talking about joy, enjoy that we can trust again.

Um, so that's a little thing that for me. I love that. We can trust again. And I I never thought about it like that because I, you know, I'm just like, oh, we should just trust in the universe.

But then I never thought about the only reason I can fully open now is to to really know I'm opening is because I had so much mistrust. Mhm. Sure. Yeah, that's really nice.

That's really nice. So you have a YouTube channel. How do people get in So what is what's on your YouTube channel? First of all.

Great. So everything that we're talking about, that's what's in my YouTube channel. I think the back the backstory of the YouTube channel is important because as uh somebody who works with people one-on-one, I know one-on-one meaning like in person. Um, I work in groups.

Um, it's still as I see people heal, I also notice that those people are more inclined to create the world that I want to live in. And the same for myself. The more I heal, I see myself creating more the world I want to live in. And so one thing I realized is I want the whole world to heal.

The more if the world were to heal, there would be no more children abused. There would be no more all of the things that create trauma that then gets passed on in the form of actions that hurt all of us and that keep the cycle going. And so I realized a while ago that healing work is most likely the most important thing that we all could be doing. I don't think there's really anything more important.

I genuinely, genuinely believe that. Um, and so I believe that people want that even though that they don't know that that's what they want. What people say is like, no more wars, no more greed, no more hunger, no more child abuse, no more sexual abuse. Great.

And how do you get there is not by screaming no more, is by healing the wounds that drive people to do that because those things are only wounded based. They are not people's will. They are not that people are born evil. Is that people get wounded by those who have been wounded, and then they, um, their actions start coming from a wounded place instead of a healed one.

So, with the idea of understanding that healing work is the most important thing we could all be doing to live in the world we all desire and wish for. Um, I realized that healing helping people heal 25 at a time, it's not going to cut it. A ceremony for those people is very important and very transformative for them. And of course, the butter the butterfly effect, 500 years from now, maybe that's going to create an incredibly meaningful impact.

And I'm happy to keep doing that. And also there is another part of my heart that's telling me, you need you're here to do something that creates more healing in the world. And so even though I cannot be giving medicine to the whole planet at a time, medicine, as I mentioned at the beginning of this podcast, and, you know, maybe we can to full circle here. Medicine is just a tool to heal.

Um, it's not the healing itself. And what I have learned with the plant is how to heal without them. And that's what's so beautiful about these plants is they equip you with the tools that you need in order to do healing work without it. So, uh, I realized the only way for me to reach millions of people is by putting my voice out there.

And so I started with YouTube and podcasts like this one, where I talk about all the healing tools that I learned. I talk about the importance of healing work. Um, I try to bridge these two worlds of science and spirit, so scientific people can land more into spirituality, and spiritual people can ground a little bit because if you go too much in the spiritual world without grounding, then that can become the opposite of healing, which I see a lot in my, if you want to call it, industry. Um, and and so I started this as a project to teach people importance of healing and how to do it with or without plants.

And I talk about everything from emotional and spiritual bypassing to self-love, to what do we have free will or not, and how that is tied into our wounding, how to re-parent ourselves, and a bunch of other stuff. So I also, uh, release, uh, once a month, a podcast, uh, with something related to to healing. Um, I release meditations. Anyway, all the stuff that, um, yeah, that is moving the world into that place.

So, um, yeah, if you want to check it out, um, I think you'll enjoy it. What's your podcast called? Well, this is funny. My podcast doesn't have a name, and it's not officially a podcast.

Oh, okay. Even though my social media manager is pressing me to finally name it and start releasing it in all of the podcast, uh, platforms. Right now, they're just YouTube episodes, um, with where I am interviewing someone. Um, I think I released only six episodes, but already 50 something videos in general.

So most of the videos I release are not podcasts. Um, they are me talking about healing work. But I think I think soon I'll have to name it and put it in the podcast platforms. But right now it's just on YouTube.

That's good. I I love that too. I can't wait. I'm going to have my son listen too because I think he would be very interested in some of this stuff.

So I I How old is he? He's he just turned 21. Oh, awesome. Yeah, yeah.

And yeah, he he's like his mom in some ways. Don't tell him I said that because then he might change. But he is like me in some ways. So how can people get a hold of you if they want to work with you?

Mhm. Okay. So if they want to get in touch with me, they can go to my website, which is my name and last name, IvanChakran. com.

Um, there they can fill out a form and get in touch. They can also just check out my YouTube channel if they just want to learn about healing, which is, uh, at IvanChakran on YouTube. Um, and then one other thing that I do is, uh, one-on-one coaching sessions on on Zoom. So if you are struggling with whatever that is, finances, uh, broken heart, you feel lost in life, um, depression, whatever that is, um, I I have learned so much about the human psyche and how to help people move forward thanks to these plants.

And so I I do one-on-one sessions too. So when somebody do you recommend somebody working with you one-on-one before they do a ceremony or there's not really a correlation and it just it it varies on who you are. For the most part, no. It's not necessary.

Okay. Um, but again, if somebody's really not ready for ceremony, for whatever reason, uh, we can help get that person ready for it. Um, it can also a lot of times people when they work with me one-on-one, they start trusting me, um, which is natural. They trust the person that you're working with.

They know me better. Um, they know that I know them better. And so they feel a little bit more confident. But generally speaking, a ceremony is most likely going to do to help you move faster.

Um, what I do recommend though, is for people who have done a ceremony to at least have one or two sessions with me afterwards. It's not mandatory, but it does help integrate the experience and learn how to apply it in your everyday life. Um, so but I work with all sorts of I work with CEOs. I work with, uh, you know, you you name it from the most spiritual to the most skeptical, the richest, the poorest, uh, you know, all cultures, um, and to me, I like it because every person's a little puzzle.

And I feel I am like playing a chess game against the tricks of their psyche that keep that person trapped within themselves. And so the person wants to escape their own, uh, escape room, if you will, of their mind. But their mind has already a lot of defense mechanisms to not allow for that to happen. And so I feel like I'm always playing a little chess game with that part of themselves to help them get liberated.

And it almost always does, and it's so it creates such a beautiful sense of satisfaction to see that. So I can I can when you're saying that, I can feel the joy and the happiness that that brings you. That's really nice. That's really nice.

So if somebody does an Medicine ceremony or whatever, yeah, an Medicine ceremony, and they have a great experience, and it's the best thing ever, and they're open, and they're happy, and they have a couple sessions with you, do they need to do it again? Like in life? Or Depends on the person. Okay.

Some people, uh, some people do four in a row, and then they don't come again in two years. Some people come once a year kind of religiously. Some people come once and never again. Some others come once every five years, but then after five years, they start coming more often.

Um, there's no there's no way of really generalizing it. I see all the combinations. I also see a one combination, which is they come to every single ceremony that's available. And I only allow it until I see that that's starting to be detrimental for the person, when they depend on the ceremony too much.

Um, but it it really depends on what you're coming for, your level of trauma. Like for PTSD from war, um, or sexual abuse, maybe it's good to do four in a row. Um, and try to dig as deep as you can, and then let you integrate. Or are you coming to get a little bit of an inspiration about what to do in life?

And then maybe that's the only ceremony you needed. So, it works it's it's very case-by-case scenario. I think what's important is to find a facilitator. And I'm saying this in case like your audience, you know, is somewhere else or they can't come to me, and I'm I'm happy to refer people to other facilitators.

What I care the most is not for people to come to me as much as to do this safely. And so if your facilitator is in integrity, and it's clearly not in your benefit to come again, they should be able to tell you that instead of thinking, yeah, come again, because inside of their head, they're thinking, I will get more participants in my ceremony for whichever reason. And so if, uh, it's not the right choice, I'll I'll I'll let you know. Yeah.

Is there any pre-work before a ceremony that somebody should do? Like, I don't know, like more meditation or some journal practicing or something that makes the experience better for people? Sure. Great question.

Um, yes. We I tell people to start a diet a week before ceremony. Basically deprives you from almost all the things you like. Um, and there is a very good reason for that.

The main one is to understand which things control you and which things you can't control. So that the things that control you, um, start surfacing into your awareness, and they become low-hanging fruit by the time you get to ceremony. A lot of the things that we consume, and with diet, I don't only mean food. We consume food, but we also consume smokes.

We also consume TV. We consume relationships, or some relationships consume us. Depends on how you see it. Um, and so you want to be sure, and some of those things are trauma-based.

So emotional eating is trauma-based. Eating, uh, too much is trauma-based. Eating too little is trauma-based. There's so much that's trauma-based, which is why I'm saying that healing work is so important.

And so what you want to know is which part of your diet, um, like some people cannot quit weed. Some people are like, oh, no meat, no alcohol, no coffee for a week. That's easy. No weed?

Oh, that sounds daunting. All right. That's fine. Try your best.

If you can't do it, that's also okay. But at least now you're more aware. You can come now to your ceremony, um, asking not exactly to quit weed, even though that could be a good intention. But also to understand the underlying mechanism.

What is why is it so hard? What's really, really happening? Because usually those things are saved in the subconscious mind. So you don't necessarily know what is keeping you under that mechanism.

Or even worse, you might believe that you know, and in reality, it's something else that is much deeper. Um, for example, some people might might be like, I, um, I can't fall asleep, and that's why I smoke weed. Okay, that's on the surface. Why can't you fall asleep?

And then you start tracing it down, and you find that your nervous system is in constant alert because your dad was abusive to you, and you never knew when he would lash out. And so you learned to be always in an alert, and unconsciously, that's keeping you awake even though you're not thinking about it every night. Um, so that's just one hypothetical example. Um, so yeah, so diet for a week, journaling your thoughts, your intentions to come, that helps a lot.

If you can start doing some meditation or more meditation or yoga, something that puts you more in touch with yourself, that's better. Um, so those are the things that we recommend. If you cannot do any of them, it doesn't mean your ceremony is not going to go successful. But we are trying to maximize the results rather than minimize them.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's great. I think that's I like to fast, and I think once I learned how to fast, I feel like it's similar little things like when I go to the airport, I I there was a time if I traveled all day, I'd be like, what am I going to eat? What am I going to eat? Because I don't you know, I eat I'm I'm vegan, so I don't eat everything from a, you know, an airport doesn't usually have lots of good food for me.

So I'm like, I'm trying to eat healthy. And then now I'm like, oh, I've that's fine. I can go a whole day without eating. You know, it's different, you know, like different levels of but there was a time where I was and you can my my poor child.

I'll be like, what'd you eat? What'd they feed you after school today? He'd be like, nothing. I'm fine.

I'm like, you're not fine. You need food. I don't know why. I've never been hungry in my life.

I don't, you know, so it's just a weird thing. But anyway. Mhm. Anyway.

Do you have anything else you want to add for, um, the podcast? Um, let me see. Um, I think I just want to say that whatever has happened to you, no matter what that is, it can heal. And when it does, you will be okay with how things played out in your life.

Even if right now feels what I'm saying feels impossible. I've seen people be okay with being abused by their own father. I've seen people be okay with going to war and seeing their own friends be blown up right in front of their eyes. Not because they were okay before, but because they've done the healing around it.

I've seen people be okay after losing all their savings because they blew it out in a bet, and their wife and kids left them. I've I literally seen the most traumatic things that in the moment, the only exit to that pain seems to end your life. For for those situations, to people later on be grateful for them. And the common thread with all of them is that they have healed around it.

And everything is healable. Of course, healing a breakup is easier than healing sexual abuse. Um, generally speaking, but just because it's harder, it doesn't mean that it's not possible. And so I want to if your audience needs to leave with one thing out of this whole, uh, episode would be that whatever has happened to you is healable, no matter what, and it's worth it.

It does take a lot of work. It takes more work at the end of the day to not heal because you'll be dealing with it for the rest of your life. So I hope that inspires people to start doing healing work, whatever that is. Um, plants are an accelerator of that healing work, and they are very efficient, but they are not the only, um, avenue.

And so, yeah, I hope that whoever's listening to this, that you feel ready to start, um, or keep going with your healing journey. Yeah, I feel inspired. I love this. Thank you so much.

That's awesome. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Vesta.

That's uh, that's um, I appreciate you having me here. Yes, thank you for being on here. It's just me, your loving father. How are you?

I'm worried about you. How's Blaze? Huh? Hello?

Hello? I love you. Talk to you later. Love you.

It's your father, Michael.